Online Running Log

donmurf wrote:

LINK

Just another victory for all of us who are not white, male protestant in the running world!

encee43 wrote:

All reasonable stuff.. You only get craziness if you follow stuff like what that Barefoot Ken Bob guy says. And the problem with most barefoot runners is they don't get that it doesn't actually make them faster, it just forces them to be more efficient which makes them faster at first.

Here's a tip, for EVERYBODY, relax your jaw!!!!!!!!!! 

I just finished the Flirt with Dirt trail run.  2 runners did it barefoot (I still don't have the guts to break out my Vibrams for a trail run yet).  Oddly, they were at the medical tent after crossing the finish line.  Bummer for them.

Strider wrote:

I agree that "Good form is the answer to efficiency"  This is true in all sports. Look at how much energy has been spent on the perfect golf swing.      So the big question for most people is how to develop good form? Is it best for one to think their way to good form by filming foot strike, posture, and trying to focus to improve our form, like in Chi Running?  

Unless it is a blatant flaw, I prefer to try two things to improve form, especially for new runners.  First periodically run striders to knock the rough edges off an ugly stride.  And the second is to make sure cadence is around 180 steps per minute. These two things go a long way to avoiding excessive heel strike and poor form.  However I am sure more experienced runners may experiment with arm position and other factors to try to improve results.

I think barefoot running naturally addresses the cadence issue.  I am curious to hear if anyone has thought their way to better form, or if folks more often use basic form drills. 

 

I agree. I always make the analogy to other sports when I talk about form. I think the best way differs for each person, but I think it involved active learning and teaching, not passively taking off your shoes and just running.

Strider wrote:

I agree that "Good form is the answer to efficiency"  This is true in all sports. Look at how much energy has been spent on the perfect golf swing.      So the big question for most people is how to develop good form? Is it best for one to think their way to good form by filming foot strike, posture, and trying to focus to improve our form, like in Chi Running?  

Unless it is a blatant flaw, I prefer to try two things to improve form, especially for new runners.  First periodically run striders to knock the rough edges off an ugly stride.  And the second is to make sure cadence is around 180 steps per minute. These two things go a long way to avoiding excessive heel strike and poor form.  However I am sure more experienced runners may experiment with arm position and other factors to try to improve results.

I think barefoot running naturally addresses the cadence issue.  I am curious to hear if anyone has thought their way to better form, or if folks more often use basic form drills. 

 

btw, strider, did you read Chi Running, I am always curious what people thought of it?

^I agree, Coffey. (btw: why is there so much blank space after all of your posts? did you hit enter a billion times?)

But yeah, well said. Chi running makes it something that needs to be practiced and takes actual work (like you said), and I think that is something that is not discussed about enough. It seems it's always a battle between barefoot and shod, and minimalism and support, and the amount of drop in the shoe, ect, ect. And I think that's a bad place to focus energy.

I guess, it's especially important for people like you and Bartlett, who are coaches to learn how to teach the skills needed to correct form.

Ayedubbs wrote:

^I agree, Coffey. (btw: why is there so much blank space after all of your posts? did you hit enter a billion times?)

But yeah, well said. Chi running makes it something that needs to be practiced and takes actual work (like you said), and I think that is something that is not discussed about enough. It seems it's always a battle between barefoot and shod, and minimalism and support, and the amount of drop in the shoe, ect, ect. And I think that's a bad place to focus energy.

I guess, it's especially important for people like you and Bartlett, who are coaches to learn how to teach the skills needed to correct form.

Good coaches fix their runners. Great coaches don't change a thing.



Would you try to fix Paula Radcliffe's head movement or Haile Gebrselassie's arm swing and overstride (which is a load of bulls**t)?



You seem to think every runner in the world should run the exact same way. Does that not sound ridiculous? 

haha relax your jaw!  and always look both ways before crossing the street :)



I may have fallen for some barefoot hype, but for my own reasons.  I have been asked by people, and asked others about reasons for wearing my vibrams.  For me, it's because I LIKE being barefoot.  This is probably due to the fact that I was raised by a redneck..I am barefoot whenever it is socially acceptable or I don't think anyone will notice.  I rarely, however, run actually barefoot.  If you put me on a nice football field or a track where there isn't likely to be anything unsafe, I might.  Unfortunately for me, I live in a big city where they lock up the track (that my tax dollars pay for!) so I am stuck with roads and trails.  I get to be nice and close to barefoot, but with some protection from sharp rocks or glass-yup, they protect my feet from glass, it's been tested, i've accidentally crunch over it and just about freaked out that the soles of my vibrams weren't going to protect me, but they did. 



BUT, I started out wearing motion control shoes and began tweaking my form when I started running.  Nope, it's not perfect, and it probably never will be.  My regular shoes (the vibrams really only get broken out once or twice per week) are neutral shoes and I feel perfectly comfortable in them.  The wear pattern on my shoes has changed from compressed foam on the inside and an all of the sole being worn out on the inside (of my motion control shoes) to a nice even wearing of the outsole and little to no compression of the "foam" part of the shoe.  I'm never going to be any sort of elite runner.  I like my shoes, I like being barefoot.  It's not for everyone, particularly people who strike with their heels as if they are trying to beat the ground into submission-for heaven's sake, please give those people some extra heel cushioning so they can prevent bruises/fractures.  I think a good overall philosophy is IF IT FEELS GOOD, DO IT!  If it hurts or gets you injured or you just plain don't like it, then stop.

donmurf wrote:

LINK

I just saw a documentary this weekend called 'Pometheus', and it has been discovered that we were genetically engineered by space aliens with whom we share DNA and look a lot like us about 30,000 years ago.  Since they came here from another planet, I'm sure they had the technology to supply our ancestors with shoes.  Thus this preposterous notion about the human race running around barefoot for hundreds of thousands of years is finally debunked.

Puppypunter2 wrote:

Good coaches fix their runners. Great coaches don't change a thing.



Would you try to fix Paula Radcliffe's head movement or Haile Gebrselassie's arm swing and overstride (which is a load of bulls**t)?



You seem to think every runner in the world should run the exact same way. Does that not sound ridiculous? 

I do not know if you meant to respond to me. But I did not say that every runner in the world should run the exact same way, or even most runners, or even imply it. In fact, I do not think that at all. I would not try to fix Paula Radcliffe's head movement or Haile's arm swing, though I think there is an argument to be made by many people that they would want to, or that improvements could be made by doing it, but I am not making that argument here, or anywhere on my posts. I guess that's a perfectionist argument, that perhaps there could be the 'perfect' way to engineer a runner (if you could engineer such a thing).

I was commenting on a totally different subject which was how barefoot running impacts or does not impact learning good form.

The discussion as to what things to change about form, whose form to change, when to change your form, I'll leave that to everyone's coaches. I have a difficult enough time trying to decide which things I want to change about my own form and which things are better left the way they were.

Good form jack

Nick J wrote:

I am working at a pretty big chain this summer as a "Running Specialist" the name isn't c**k's Sporting Goods but something like that. We sell Fila Skele-toes which are the knock off version of 5 fingers and usually when people ask for them we mysteriously don't have their size. I can not bring myself to let people run in them. I take my job rather seriously, even though it is a summer job, and try my hardest to get people to buy the right shoes. Sometimes people are just too damn stubborn and buy lightweight shoes when they are 400lbs and heal strike hard but I can not stop them. People buy into hype without doing any research for themselves. They come in with preconceived notions about a shoe they want because it is on sale or it looks cute. I understand having a price range but people need to be willing to spend $75 for a good shoe. Many people come in with the $50 budget and I wish I could give it to them for what they can afford but I can't. Another downside is sometimes, mostly weekends, it gets so busy and people come in and say "I'm just starting to run and want a good shoe what do you recommend" I don't have time to help them as much as I want too. Also, the stupid track that is by the shoes, that is just embarrassing. No one can run on that and we have so much crap everywhere that I can not have people run safely without having to dodge other customers.



But seriously the prices aren't bad and I like it when people visit me, so come to c**k's.

dude which C**ks do you work at, is there one in the JV mall now? or tell me the galleria is still standing? I have not been home in ages.  

Ayedubbs wrote:

dude which C**ks do you work at, is there one in the JV mall now? or tell me the galleria is still standing? I have not been home in ages.  

I work at the galleria, some of it is still standing. A couple winters ago they piled snow 30 feet high on the 2nd level of the parking garage and the whole thing collapsed. Cars were crushed.

I really did not like the book, as the author struck me as arrogant.  But he had a few interesting observations that were helpful. 





  

BrewPat wrote:

I've been banging the form drum for as long as I can remember.  I never stop thinking about my form, might be one of the reasons I hardly ever get hurt.

Cadence - 180 per stride - check.

Heel strike - bad - check.

Arm swing - sets the tone for what the legs do - check.

5 Fingers - doesn't fix form - check.

I do believe that how you start your stride is a huge factor in how efficient you are.  Knee lift huge in my opinion.  Decades ago people harped on the idea of the marathon shuffle.  Short strides where it seemed people didn't get more the 6" off the ground.  That's fine if you want to just finish a marathon, but knee lift is the key to getting the most out of your form.  Too many people being their stride with their feet.  They kind of throw their foot out in front of them as opposed to leading with their knee.  If you lead with the knee your turnover will be quicker, it's almost impossible to heel strike and you'll be able to flip the switch into sprint mode in a flash.



I really need to do a video to describe what the hell I'm talking about *sighs*

Yeah the funny thing is a few of the "leaders" of the barefoot movment will tell you to lead with your foot. They don't understand how to run fast.

and obviously i agree with everything you said, ill be in the kitchen all day making pot pies if you need me.

Hoya wrote:

chicken pot pies

Turkey!

joelseph wrote:

I've been a heel-striker all my life, and pretty much chalked it up to genetics and shoes. Read your post last night. Was feeling kinda crappy today, so I figured I would give the whole "knee-lift" idea a shot. 



Within 5 strides, I thought to myself, "OMG, that man is a genius."



It was like unlocking the hidden level in a video game.

Glad it "unlocked" that hidden level for you.  Keep in mind it will take a lot of work to get the feel down and have it be part of your stride.  You, as you stated, have been a heel striker for a long time.  This isn't going to change in one run.  Good luck.